[00:00:00] Elizabeth: I have they're not all travel tattoos.

I'm building like I'm building like a patchwork sleeve up my arm of travel tattoos.

[00:00:07] David: I collect Christmas ornaments from where I travel. Is that the same

[00:00:11] Gary: Yeah, that's just one level below how cool the tattoos are. It goes tattoos, then

[00:00:17] David: Tattoos. Then Christmas ornaments. Then spoons.

[00:00:21] Gary: and then snow

[00:00:25] David: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Biz Dev Podcast, the podcast about

developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host, joined Per Usual by Gary Voight. Hello, sir. Long time no see.

[00:00:35] Gary: Yeah, good to have you back. I've been filling in the host shoes for a while and,

[00:00:40] David: Yeah, I've been getting complaints.

[00:00:41] Gary: no, complaints.

[00:00:42] David: Most people are really mad. Our numbers are

[00:00:45] Gary: our ratings went way up. Way up.

[00:00:47] David: don't, I don't, you're looking at different numbers. Is that what that is? Spiking All. More importantly, we are joined by Liz Ruff, who is the founder of Elizabeth Ruff Consulting. Hello. Welcome.

[00:01:00] Elizabeth: Thanks. Thanks for having me guys. And you did great, David.

[00:01:03] David: Oh, thank you. I didn't mess up once.

[00:01:05] Gary: Don't encourage him.

[00:01:06] David: see she's nice. We're gonna gang up on you this time. He

doesn't talk much. That's the good news. Alright, so we have some intro questions to get to know you a little bit better. You ready?

[00:01:16] Gary: hitting deep

[00:01:18] Elizabeth: as I'll ever be.

[00:01:19] Gary: questions.

[00:01:19] David: deep probing questions. Dogs or cats?

[00:01:22] Elizabeth: Cats.

[00:01:24] David: You have a dog

[00:01:25] Gary: of a dog behind you.

[00:01:26] David: What is happening right now?

I

thought this was an easy one.

[00:01:29] Elizabeth: I have a picture of a dog behind me because you can't see it. It says rough life on it and it says

[00:01:34] Gary: Oh, okay. It's a spin off your

[00:01:36] Elizabeth: it's misspelled, but that's why it's there. I'm a

cat person though.

[00:01:39] David: Cat person.

Okay. All right we're ending early. It was good to talk to you. Alright, I.

want to dive into that. Psychosis albums or playlists.

[00:01:50] Elizabeth: Can I say burned CDs instead?

[00:01:53] David: Oh

[00:01:55] Gary: yeah. Let's take

[00:01:56] David: Do you still have a burner?

[00:01:58] Elizabeth: I

do,

[00:01:59] Gary: you using Nero

[00:02:01] David: you

making a

[00:02:01] Gary: Limewire and Nero?

[00:02:03] David: What's happening right now? Nice. Nice.

[00:02:06] Elizabeth: I, I love both. I think there's a time and place for both. I think right now probably playlist though.

[00:02:11] David: Tell me about Elizabeth Rough Consulting.

[00:02:16] Elizabeth: Yeah, it is a consulting practice that I started in 2022 to help the helpers, if you will, and it's gone through a lot of different iterations of the business. I think any entrepreneur will tell you that almost quarterly. It feels like you're reinventing yourself. And the iteration that we've got right now is focused on strategic planning and facilitation for nonprofits and associations.

[00:02:42] David: Okay. Who is we? Is it you and a crew or is it just you and you're using the Royal We.

[00:02:48] Elizabeth: It's the royal wee, but it's me and my cat.

We'll just, we'll bring my cat along.

[00:02:53] David: It's totally fair. No, I was a royal we for a long time. I get it. Nothing wrong with that. Where I, and I've told this story before. What I, my line is when you say you have multiple offices, that's what drives me nuts.

We, we knew a guy who was a competitor of ours years ago and his website said he had five offices and all that meant was he had a contractor. There wasn't even an employee. It was just a contractor, but he was like, we got one in New York, in Dubai. And they're like, come on man. Anyway.

[00:03:21] Elizabeth: With that accent too,

[00:03:23] David: Sure. 'cause I'm not allowed to do accents.

My wife has forbidden it because none of them, they all come out really bad.

[00:03:29] Gary: Most of society is forbidden it. Yeah.

[00:03:32] David: horrible. It is not okay. So I'm not allowed to do accents anymore. My wife won't allow it. So she's smart that way.

So what made you turn this last turn? Why? Why nonprofits and associations?

[00:03:43] Elizabeth: it's always been mission driven. And I think the biggest turn was really the shift from marketing into this shift of strategic planning, and that came about because. Y'all. I was doing everything for everyone. People didn't know when they should call me, and so nobody was calling me and I was like that's a problem.

That's killing my business. So decided to focus in on something that I'm really good at, that I'm really passionate at. And that's where we landed on strategic planning.

[00:04:13] David: It is, you're speaking to something that is so true for entrepreneurship. Everyone, and I'm guilty of this, so we have our own little startup that we're working on called Tila. And I am guilty of this and I struggle with this even now, even we've been literally been told not to do this. build an Everything app and no one comes.

[00:04:34] Elizabeth: Right.

[00:04:35] David: That is the standard. 'cause it's like I don't wanna narrow down, and again, I'm speaking really to myself 'cause I'm doing this right now. I don't wanna narrow it down 'cause I don't wanna leave customers off to the side. And yet when you don't narrow it down, no one thinks you're worth anything. 'cause no one's good at everything.

And so when I look at your generic app, and that could be a consulting firm or it could be an app like ours, it could be anything. And. When you do that, you just say into the world, I stand for nothing basically. And so it's funny. So it's very true. Even for consulting for us, one thing and I fought, now that we're 13 years old, we just crossed 13 last month. And as Big Pixel not as our startup obviously. Everyone asks what vertical we're in. I'm speaking again of the narrowing down and we have for 13 years now, have never had a vertical. We joke that we have a horizontal that which is we targets all businesses within a band of revenue, is basically where we sit.

And that's become our industry, for lack of a better term. Because I don't, when it comes to big pixel, I get bored real easy, so I don't wanna build the same software over and over again.

Sorry, I went off on a tangent, but. So how is it going now? How long have you been in your current iteration?

[00:05:48] Elizabeth: since January,

[00:05:50] David: Okay, so it's fresh,

scrubby fresh.

And what were you what was your previous generation? Re generation. Nope, that's not the right word. That's okay. We'll go with it. What were you previously?

[00:06:01] Gary: Iteration you're looking for

[00:06:03] David: Thank you. Thank

[00:06:04] Elizabeth: there we go. So here's the deal. I've always done strategic planning. It's always been a part of what I've done. I've just also done it and digital marketing and campaign strategy. And you need an interim CMO and you need an interim head of internal communications, and that was too much.

[00:06:25] David: Yep.

[00:06:26] Elizabeth: So we just stripped away everything that wasn't. Fun. And here we

are now, we now we're left with the fun stuff.

[00:06:35] Gary: So now how comfortable are you gonna be if you create the strategic planning and then you hand it to them to give to a different marketing agency?

[00:06:44] Elizabeth: I'd be fine with that.

[00:06:46] Gary: And the marketing agency is like maybe not up to par compared to

[00:06:50] Elizabeth: I, it's interesting because I am, I do

a lot of organizational wide strategic plans, so typically I'll come in to a nonprofit or an association at a pivot point. Either they're, they have a new executive director, they are coming into a period of high growth, they've. Just left a period of high growth and they need some stability.

And so I'll work with the executive director and the board to put together a five-year plan that best suits their needs. But I stay on board for two months at the end of it, and so I help them kickstart that implementation

so that I know it's going to get done because the last thing I want is to just hand an organization and strategic plan and have it collect dust on a shelf.

[00:07:35] David: Sure. That's what mostly happens.

[00:07:37] Elizabeth: Yeah.

[00:07:38] Gary: Yeah,

[00:07:38] David: Yeah. We

[00:07:39] Elizabeth: when you work with me.

[00:07:40] David: Oh, look at that. Nice

plug. Nice. We actually just hired a sales organization for Big pixel. For Exactly they came at it differently. 'cause what I got, we're trying to grow and all that fun stuff. And what I liked about these guys was, I don't need another playbook.

We've been doing this a long time. I know who we are. We're, we've been doing this, we know our values and our brand and all of that stuff, and all of these. And we've talked to several and they're like, I'm gonna give you a playbook. And like the word playbook is something

magical. I'm like, dude, you all say it.

You all say the same thing. It's the same thing. And I actually say, I'm not very nice Sometimes. This guy was telling me he was gonna send me a playbook and I sent him, or I read him the last playbook I got. I'm like, dude, I've been here, man. I've been here. And he was gonna charge like $12,000 for another one. And I was like, dude, okay. I'm sure it's lovely. But these guys came in and I'd never seen this for a consulting firm. They're gonna, we're gonna make a playbook, but I'm not gonna show it to you. What we're gonna show do is give it to our people to actually implement for you. Obviously we're involved, but they had their own grunts.

And that's what I find is so interesting about most consulting firms is, and you could tell me if I'm wrong for you, most of 'em are these high level thinkers, but they don't wanna do the grunt work. And so that's that to me. They're like not many people can do what I do. I'm gonna give you a playbook. Thanks, dude. And then someone else has to go and do it. And the reason why they collect dust is because I don't have the manpower to do it. It's great that you thought deeply about this, and not you specifically of course, but whoever, whatever you're hiring for, thank you for bringing this, your expertise.

I didn't have that. That's why I brought you in to begin with. But now that you've given me this from on high. What am I supposed to do with it? Because I'm busy doing my day-to-day work. Which is, and so these guys bring in their own grunts, and I love that. That to me it's and so I'm mentoring a guy who's starting another consulting firm.

I'm like, dude, you should do this. And he's not in sales, but it's similar concept, but I don't know why that's not more common. Is that something where you could grow into, I know you're the royal we now, but is that something you'd be interested in growing into or No.

[00:09:52] Elizabeth: First to speak to the first part, I think it is very common for consultants to just come in with this high level thinking and let me do all of the planning for you. Okay, now go do it. Not understanding that small scrappy teams can't do that. Plus, a lot of the times they haven't been a part of that planning process. It's been this consulting firm that's out here doing that planning, and then they come in with a solution and it's not feasible.

[00:10:23] AD: We believe that business is built on transparency and trust. We believe that good software should be built the same way. Big Pixel is a 100% US-based fixed fee, custom software design and development agency built on transparency and passion. No offshore handoffs, no surprise invoices, just a team that treats your problem like it's our own.

UX and design are core to everything we do. Not a phase that gets handed off, but a discipline that runs through every decision we make. We bring the expertise to build what your business needs and the clarity to know when AI and technology help and when they get in the way, we provide our clients honest assessments of where they are and how they can get where they want to go.

Your idea deserves the right team. Let's talk plan and create something that truly works for you.

[00:11:18] David: So Raleigh Durham Startup Week. I know when this publishes, it will, I've already happened. But you're planning on going and do you enjoy these kind of events? Are these, is this your, is your cup of tea?

[00:11:30] Elizabeth: It is and it isn't. I am not an extrovert by nature, and so I have to be particular about how I choose my events that I go to, and I think what's. Challenging for me about a lot of these events is I have zero intention of hiring people. I like that. I am a solopreneur. I like that I have control and I don't wanna grow it.

I don't want people, and

[00:11:55] David: This is so

[00:11:56] Elizabeth: that is so unusual for any sort of like entrepreneur startup event kind of a situation

[00:12:02] David: So are you basically a permanent freelancer? For all intents and purposes.

[00:12:07] Elizabeth: basically.

[00:12:09] David: Now, why is

[00:12:10] Gary: to network with potential clients though, right? Yeah,

[00:12:14] David: so when you fill up your bucket, you're done for a

while. Then you, okay, so what, why? Why is that? Why not want to grow in any way, shape or form? Take a vacation, something you know where it's

not all on your shoulders.

[00:12:28] Elizabeth: yeah, I take vacations all the time. I just was gone for a week. I'm gonna be gone for a week at the end of the month. I.

[00:12:34] David: I.

[00:12:35] Elizabeth: A couple of reasons. One, I have tried a business venture with a partner and failed at it because I felt like I wasn't a strong enough business partner because I traveled so frequently. And so that kind of guilt weighed on me a little bit. But also, I don't wanna be responsible for somebody else's ability to put food on the table for their family.

[00:13:01] David: I will say that. Was one of the hardest things when I started hiring people.

There's 12 of us now, and it, and I don't understand how someone like Jeff Bezos and I just pick him out of a hat. You have thousands of employees underneath you. How you can, that weight, like having 12 people's livelihoods on my shoulders is hard.

Thousands. I don't, and from what I understand from people who have larger com companies, they're like, it just. They're like cogs in a machine, like they're not weighing on you. You have

your direct reports.

[00:13:35] Gary: once you

[00:13:36] David: Yeah.

And it's not because they're bad people, it's because the human brain doesn't compute like that.

You have your direct reports that you see every day and might, that might extend to a hundred people in your immediate vicinity. But then when you're talking a multinational firm, the rest of 'em are just numbers.

And I think your. Brain just has to de decouple a little bit, or it would be crushing, but it is hard just for, if we have a slow month that's on me.

And especially I'm the sales guy, so it's even worse. But but yeah, I totally understand that. But at the same time, I don't know if I'd want to I don't think I could take a vacation if I didn't. Like I didn't take one for a long time when I first started because I didn't, I was afraid something would drop. I was too scared and now I have people to pick up when I drop things 'cause I do it all the time. And that's how I can do it now. So you're obviously built a very different stuff than I am.

[00:14:29] Elizabeth: Oh thank you. You're built of different stuff than I am too. That's immense pressure and care to want to build a business and bring people along with you. That's

[00:14:38] Gary: But what you're doing sounds more fun working when you want and traveling when you want. That sounds way better.

[00:14:45] Elizabeth: It is, it's, it's its own kind of stressful too, it's two sides of the same coin, I think. Yeah.

[00:14:52] Gary: So the time that you do have that, you're focusing on the business, is that. Are you doubling up everything to make sure that things are covered, so you do have that free time afterward.

[00:15:03] Elizabeth: A little bit of both. I do double up sometimes, but the nature of the work that I do is project based and cyclical. A little bit. So most of my engagements are about six months and there are ebbs and flows and I do take my computer on vacation and, I'll answer some emails if something is urgent.

But I do my best to disconnect and carve out time for me, even when it is a busy season.

[00:15:29] David: See, I have a strict rule. If I go on vacation, I completely delete everything.

[00:15:34] Elizabeth: Nice.

[00:15:35] David: That is my rule. If I'm gonna actually leave, you're not coming with me. That's how and everyone knows that. All my clients know that I disappear couple, few times a year and I delete Slack and I delete email. Now, I'm not, I have told this story before, but there's this, there's almost a goal of mine.

There's a dude, I cannot remember his name 'cause I'm horrible at distribution, but. He goes out and his out of office message says, thank you for emailing me. If this is important, email me when I get back on this date. 'cause I will never read your email. He deletes everything that comes to his inbox while he is gone. And I'm like, that is ballsy. I can't do it. But I, my hat's off to that man because, 'cause ultimately it, he's not wrong, but I just, like a new client comes in. Yeah. That's not happening.

[00:16:21] Elizabeth: That's impressive.

I wish I had

[00:16:23] David: I

[00:16:23] Elizabeth: the like strength to do that.

[00:16:25] David: That takes, yeah, there's Kanyes there that I just do not possess.

No

[00:16:30] Elizabeth: Nope.

[00:16:30] David: So you, speaking of travel, I can't let you go without asking about your tattoo collection

that comes around from traveling. That is such an unusual thing. And it is right on your website. I love that.

It's just okay, alright. She collects tattoos. I've never heard that phrase

before.

[00:16:49] Elizabeth: I have 10. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. I have 10.

[00:16:54] David: 10.

[00:16:55] Elizabeth: And it started, I honestly don't know when it started.

[00:17:00] David: Showed up on your arm and you didn't know how.

[00:17:02] Elizabeth: I have they're not all travel tattoos.

I'm building like I'm building like a patchwork sleeve up my arm of travel tattoos.

[00:17:09] David: I collect Christmas ornaments from where I travel. Is that the same

[00:17:13] Gary: Yeah, that's just one level below how cool the tattoos are. It goes tattoos, then

[00:17:20] David: Tattoos. Then Christmas ornaments. Then spoons.

[00:17:24] Gary: and then snow globes and

spoons. Yeah.

[00:17:27] David: plates. I mean

plates. Yeah.

[00:17:30] Gary: I had a friend who collected shot classes, we were young.

[00:17:34] David: The best are the little baby spoons. I don't even understand what the point of them are. They're like two inches long what are you doing with this? But they look, I have them from all over. I don't.

[00:17:43] Elizabeth: It takes up less room.

[00:17:45] David: It's true. Yeah. You just have tons of them. Yeah. Christmas orna is our thing. We had a tragedy Christmas before last.

My dog fell into our tree and he broke like some of our oldest ones. So they're like 20-year-old

[00:17:59] Elizabeth: Oh no.

[00:18:00] David: and he is you can't get those back. They're done. They're

broken. It's gone. So it's okay. Now we put, now our trade looks really sad 'cause the ornaments started about halfway up so that he can't go in there anyway,

so what is your favorite one? It is like picking a child. I know.

[00:18:16] Elizabeth: it is. It is. Are you guys doing, will there be video with this?

[00:18:19] David: Yes.

You're on it right now. Look at that.

[00:18:22] Elizabeth: didn't, some people publish just audio only. You never know.

[00:18:25] Gary: We do both. Most people listen audio,

[00:18:28] David: Yeah. Very

[00:18:29] Gary: about a cool tattoo, maybe they'll check out the video so

[00:18:32] Elizabeth: My favorite is this little guy. Oh, you can't see him?

[00:18:35] David: Whoa. Stay still.

You gotta zoom in. What is that an

[00:18:38] Gary: Sloth.

[00:18:39] Elizabeth: It's a sloth.

[00:18:40] Gary: Yeah.

[00:18:41] David: Oh I'm an idiot.

[00:18:42] Elizabeth: his name is Rafael

[00:18:44] David: Nice.

and

[00:18:46] Elizabeth: and

he is he is my tattoo from my honeymoon in Costa Rica.

[00:18:51] David: Nice.

[00:18:52] Gary: wanted to, I had a surf trip planned to Costa Rica and my buddy backed out a week before we, we were gonna leave, so I didn't go. And now I've always wanted to go back and never had the opportunity.

[00:19:03] David: You're so old you couldn't even go.

[00:19:05] Gary: Yeah. Now it'd be like a fishing trip or something

[00:19:07] David: You just,

just die out there, get sunburned and die.

[00:19:12] Elizabeth: Yeah

[00:19:13] David: that's way cooler than me, even though I do like my ornaments.

[00:19:16] Elizabeth: We have some of those too. We have some. We have some ornaments too.

[00:19:20] David: Yeah you don't have to commiserate with my dorkiness. That's fine. It's fine. I'm not at your level. It's fine. I'm totally cool with that. All right, here we go. Give you my before I hand you off to Gary for our final question. This is my blue sky question. If your consulting firm has no hiccups, all blue skies and greenfields in front of you for five years, what does it look like? The exact same thing. 'cause you don't hire anybody.

[00:19:45] Elizabeth: It. What does it look like? It looks the same in terms of the work.

So the purpose of my work and the goal of my work is to help organizations be better so that they can serve their communities,

right? So if I can help a nonprofit be. More eff efficient and effective in how they're operating.

They're able to serve more people and help more people. That's the end goal at the end of the day. And I think if everything is blue skies in five years, it's that. But on a large scale, so maybe I am training a team of facilitators who can do similar work. Maybe I'm speaking on stages. Internationally about how to build strong teams. Maybe I've got digital courses out there, but it's still serving that same mission and it's still got some of the day to day that I've got now.

[00:20:37] David: I think now, I don't know you very well 'cause this is our first time meeting, but here's my thought. You're gonna fall in love with your mission so much that you're gonna start hiring people because you want to make your mission bigger and you want to help more people, and you want to help bigger organizations, which you cannot do by yourself. That is my prediction for you. In five years

[00:20:58] Elizabeth: if that happens, I'll buy you lunch.

[00:20:59] David: Fair deal.

[00:21:01] Gary: And a

[00:21:02] Elizabeth: I will not work against myself and I'll buy you lunch if that happens.

[00:21:06] David: first hire. You have to buy me lunch deal. You hear it here? Right here, everybody. There it is. I'm getting lunch. It's gonna be good. All

[00:21:15] Gary: Liz, so through your experiences both as a business partner and as an entrepreneur yourself, and through the iterations that you've taken your consulting group. Consulting firm through, what would you say are your top three pieces of advice for a new entrepreneur?

[00:21:30] Elizabeth: Ooh, I love pieces of advice. I have lots of strong opinions and I like to give them my three as evidenced by

[00:21:37] David: to that at all.

[00:21:39] Elizabeth: as evidenced by how quickly I answered your cat's question. Three pieces of advice. Number one, trust your gut. I have gotten myself into situations where I look back and I'm like my gut was telling me not to do that.

I think intuition's really strong. I think that's number one. Number two, don't be afraid to say no. Goes hand in hand. And then number three is hold onto to the things that make us human. Hold onto your curiosity. Hold onto to your desire to learn. Hold onto your imagination, and the world is endless.

[00:22:19] Gary: Pretty good advice. The trust your gut has come up quite a bit lately, so

that one's trending. All right. Liz, if anybody wants to learn more about you or about your consulting company, where's the best place for them to reach out and find you?

[00:22:33] Elizabeth: yeah. Two best places. Best place number one is my website, elizabeth ruff.com. Best place number two is LinkedIn. I am Elizabeth Ruff on LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time over

[00:22:45] Gary: We will make sure those links are in the show notes for everybody to click.

[00:22:48] Elizabeth: Okay.

[00:22:49] David: I want to thank you, Liz. This is the longest podcast we've had that we have not said the word ai, so well done. Well

[00:22:56] Gary: That's You broke

[00:22:57] David: I'm not even j I'm not even joking. I think it's been a year since we've had a podcast where it wasn't mostly about ai, and I know it's all over. I don't wanna mean you're, it's all over your website that you do AI and you work in AI and all that, don't wanna say you don't know that, but I loved the fact that we didn't have to talk about that at all, so yay.

[00:23:13] Elizabeth: Yeah, I that's wild. I was expecting,

for that to come up. So thank you for

it. Thank you

for it not coming up.

[00:23:19] Gary: We're pioneering the trend of being over the hype cycle.

[00:23:23] David: Is that what we're doing? Because I

[00:23:24] Gary: We're breaking new

[00:23:25] David: gonna talk about

ai.

[00:23:26] Gary: that's true.

[00:23:27] Elizabeth: I, the we're gonna take two seconds to talk about ai. I think we are still in the early adopter phase of the technology adoption curve with ai.

[00:23:36] Gary: Oh yeah, like

it's in our daily, across the world, even across the country, most people aren't using it or don't care.

[00:23:44] Elizabeth: Yeah. I think especially with, not like nonprofits and associations we're, we are very early adopter of AI tools and technology.

[00:23:52] David: I think it's as simple as. They have figured out that the money is in business and software, so we live in it.

[00:24:01] Elizabeth: Yep.

[00:24:02] David: The average Joe thinks it's stupid

unless you've got very basic requirements and they've not cracked the nut of the average Joe, and until they do, it will remain in our terminals.

[00:24:16] Gary: The more it is weaved seamlessly into phones and devices, without it being obvious that it's ai, like the more, smart, your smart device can get with the use of ai, but without it being in your face, I think then it's gonna, yeah, it's gonna be become far more widely used.

[00:24:34] David: Yeah, no, that's true. I think once Google and iOS both just make it Siri

or their bot, oh, now it's my phone's listening to me. Shut up. Think that's

[00:24:45] Gary: it has to

work though

[00:24:46] David: we were so

close, we were wrapping up and here we are

[00:24:50] Elizabeth: Listen, it's at the end. We don't even have to include it. That's why you have an editor.

[00:24:55] David: That's too

well, yeah, but he's tired. He fell asleep. He's so exhausted from this episode that he's, he went to bed already 'cause he was so upset with me and my not turning the mic off when I cough. Alright, on that note. Thank you so much Liz. This

has been a blast.

[00:25:10] Elizabeth: this was great. This was so fun.

[00:25:13] David: Hopefully I will see you next week at Raleigh Durham Startup Week when

you come out of your turtle shell and sneak out. Let me know if you're coming to my event, but

also what other events you're going and I'll try to run into you.

[00:25:25] Elizabeth: I will, yeah, I'll be mostly in the Raleigh days. So I'm in Raleigh and

[00:25:28] David: me.

[00:25:29] Elizabeth: I might trek out to Chapel Hill. Who knows?

[00:25:31] David: It's a long drive.

[00:25:33] Elizabeth: It's a long drive.

[00:25:34] David: righty.

And on that note, we are outta here. Thank you everybody. We'll be back next week.

[00:25:40] OUTRO: That wraps up this episode of the Biz Dev Podcast, and this time you get me, Jen Baxter, co-owner of Big Pixel and David's Wife. Yep. I finally took the mic or rusted it away from David. Biz Dev is a production of Big Pixel, a US-based provider of UX design strategy, and custom software. This podcast is edited by Audio Wiz Matt McCracken and Christie Pronto marketing guru for Big Pixel.

Want to connect, shoot us an email at hello@thebigpixel.net. Or find us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, X and LinkedIn.

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