[00:00:00] Joanna: So how you show up as a leader every day, that takes work, right? How we show up every day as people takes work.

[00:00:10] David: Hi, everyone. Welcome to The Biz Dev Podcast, podcast about developing your business. I'm David Baxter, your host, joined per usual by Mr. Gary Voight. Sup?

[00:00:19] Gary: Hello

[00:00:20] David: I don't wanna make fun of you today. I'm feeling generous

[00:00:23] Gary: Yeah, typically Joanna, he tries to throw some really like, I guess you could say a low-level kind of dig at me, and

[00:00:30] David: lame

[00:00:31] Gary: It makes him look pretty bad, but I think he's over it.

[00:00:34] David: Yeah, I'm just it's my jealousy

clearly of his hair. Or the fact that he's ancient and old. That's the other one that I like to do. I've got a whole bag

[00:00:43] Joanna: get better with age

[00:00:44] David: Is that right? It's like fine wine? He's more like stinky cheese

[00:00:49] Joanna: Okay. Well, there's your dig.

[00:00:51] David: There's my dig. Yay. All right. More importantly, that voice you are hearing is Joanna Roses Ryan, who is a leadership and communications coach, and also founder of her company. Hello, Miss Joanna. How are you?

[00:01:04] Joanna: I'm good. How are you doing?

[00:01:06] David: I am wonderful. I am wonderful. All right, so we're gonna start this this little shindig off with some random questions.

Are you ready?

[00:01:14] Joanna: I hope so

[00:01:16] David: All right. So as a child, were you the person who ran the lemonade stand or just bought lemonade?

[00:01:24] Joanna: Ooh, good question. I ran the lemonade, lemonade stand. But I don't remember actually doing a lemonade stand as a child, so,

[00:01:36] David: What did you do? What was your business of choice?

[00:01:39] Joanna: I started working when I was, I think 14, or actually maybe even a little younger. I worked at a nursing home and I waited tables

[00:01:49] David: Nice. My first job was CiCi's Pizza. Very

[00:01:51] Joanna: Oh, that is exciting.

[00:01:53] David: At bus tables. Yes,

[00:01:56] Joanna: it, it trains you well, right? The people business, 

[00:01:59] David: all righty. So are you the type of person who interrupts or waits your turn?

[00:02:04] Joanna: I wait my turn

[00:02:06] David: Really? Sometimes I interrupt 

i'm horrible at it. I am, I will, and I'll interrupt you 12 times before we're done here. It will happen. Just

[00:02:14] Joanna: Well, I'll try to interrupt you back. How's that?

[00:02:16] David: That's fine. You go for it. You go for it. I like to interrupt Gary just 'cause he doesn't have anything good to say. 

[00:02:22] Joanna: Dig

[00:02:22] Gary: I interrupt and then I just continue to talk,

[00:02:25] David: That, Gary does have this

[00:02:26] Gary: an interruption.

[00:02:27] David: talent that I've never seen before. Once he gets started, you cannot interrupt him. He will just keep talking. It doesn't matter. You cannot interrupt him. He just is like a bullet, just straight. It's all that's gonna... And it's funny 'cause a client will sometimes wanna interrupt him, and they don't know this about him, and it's just this very odd fight that happens.

It's,

[00:02:47] Joanna: I call that the jackhammer response. And usually I mean, you'll run out of breath at some point, but, you know, you're talking, you're talking to a communicator here, so I think, um, I don't know. I, I had a boss when I was in my 20s that I really respected and admired, and he would always be the one that was listening in the room.

So I believe in that approach, and then speak up when you have something to say. But, you know, sometimes you need to speak up even when you're uncomfortable. So I actually coach people on that a lot.

[00:03:18] David: For those who don't know, I actually know Joanna outside of this, so I... This is not my first time chatting with her. Sometimes the, most of the guests, I guess most of the guests I don't know, but the last few have been friends, which have been... It's all a weird thing of scheduling.

So yes, I can say that without just being really weird. All right, so tell me about your company. Tell me about what you do

[00:03:39] Joanna: So I help with development of leadership, and what I mean by that is I don't help you... You know, I'm not the coach in the sense that will help you find your next job. I will help you get to the next level in your job, or if you wanna have more influence in your role or get to, you know, if you're, if you're an existing leader, for example, and people aren't just buying what you sell.

Then the second piece is with culture development, so help leaders with teams and help really teams work better together.

And so I do a lot of facilitation and workshops and stuff like that. And then the last piece is communications consulting, so helping you really write the narrative of what you want for your company and help leaders communicate.

[00:04:28] David: So dig, digging into the leadership thing. So when I think of leadership, when I'm learning leadership, I am thinking of ways to communicate to my internal team. I'm thinking of ways to be like core values and understanding that. But it doesn't... That sounds different than what you're talking about.

You're not talking about w- I guess I'm thinking of leadership at the company, like as founder, executive level. But you're talking about this guy could be a middle manager or even an executive, but probably not the boss. Is that accurate?

[00:04:59] Joanna: No, it could be anyone. It could be an emerging leader, it can be really anybody. But, um, you know, I tend to work with, uh, senior leaders who are existing leaders, but there's usually something that's, um... You know, I have this inside out kind of philosophy or approach that I take to coaching. So I think that it's developing the inside before you can project the presence that you want as a leader outside.

Um, so I work on your EQ, right? Like, and what's, what's driving you as a leader. Emotional intelligence, right? How you, um... Which is really a, a set of skills that you're not necessarily taught as you kind of rise through the ranks. Sometimes people have them naturally, but the majority of leaders don't, and communication is a piece of that.

You know, how you form relationships, how you problem solve, what drives you. Um, so when you're talking about values and stuff, what you're talking about is how you outwardly project the values, how you outwardly communicate. But before you can get to that, like you have to actually have the confidence, have the kind of inner value, the core set to kind of work with to project what you want to be as a leader on the outside.

So it goes from inside to outside, your kinda EQ to your presence that you have externally.

[00:06:19] David: That sounds like therapy.

[00:06:22] Joanna: coaching, sometimes gets confused with therapy, but it's really figuring out where you're strong and where you may need to balance where you're not strong. It's all about counterbalancing with your strengths. So there's a lot that I think goes into, to leadership that we sometimes take for granted

There's a lot that goes into leadership that we aren't necessarily groomed or taught and there's a skill set that comes along with it that not everybody has naturally. And so that's what I work with you on, and figuring out the why it's not working

[00:06:56] David: when a company hires you, is it because something's going wrong or they just assume that every leader could get better?

[00:07:04] Joanna: Oh, I wish that was the case. No, it's, it's sometimes it's for both. Sometimes it, I think a lot of times sometimes it's the actual leader hiring, right? And then sometimes it's the company. So I have a client that I started out with because, um, they saw a lot of promise in this person and, um, she is being groomed to lead a certain division of the company.

I have somebody that I was brought in to help solve problems and, you know, see where we can get them. So it's a little bit of both. Uh, it really depends on, um, what the end goal is. But my-- I love working where, with people in situations where people see the promise in the people

[00:07:50] David: So what's a practical, like someone listening to this podcast, what's some practical stuff that they either could do work on their own or that you would... Like, where do you start from? You know what I'm saying? Before I came to you or I can't afford you or whatever reason, what would be something I could start with that would be practical to be a better leader?

[00:08:10] Joanna: I think it would be where are you getting hung up? So we would have a conversation, right? Like, what's tripping you up as a leader? Like, where are you stuck? Um, is your team not responding to you? Are you having a gap in communication? A lot of people are feeling misunderstood, so we talk through that and really try to understand.

But the first thing that I do is I actually give you an assessment to really understand, like, your emotional intelligence makeup, your EQ. And then we have a set of skills that we can start to work on throughout your coaching to really understand where we need to focus in and where you need balance. So you might be very aware that you are strong in terms of, you know, relationship building, but maybe your confidence is not as high as you think, and so we need to actually build that up in certain ways.

And we figure out through real work situations that we talk about where that could... Not necessarily back to your childhood, right? That's more therapy. We talk about, like, how we could move for- things forward differently. Um, and a lot of them, you know, what we come up with are, are small things that you may not even realize are happening.

A lot of things that I talk about with clients are looking at things through a different lens, through a different perspective to help them, uh, see how they could take a different approach. 'Cause when you are talking to me, sometimes you're stuck and you're just so in it you can't think through and think of the different pathways there are to approach something.

[00:09:37] David: How... I guess w- I'm skeptical, not, I don't mean that in a negative way, but if I come to you and I don't necessarily want to be talking to you, my boss is telling me I need to talk to you or whatever, right? I'm a problem. How do you know I'm not lying to you? Do you go talk to my coworkers to get a feel for what kind of leader I am, or do you just take me at face value?

[00:09:57] Joanna: I can do that. So I can give you 360 evaluation, that kind of thing. But, um, usually when a company comes you know, there are shared goals here, right? Like they're not... and you, if you are the person that I'm coaching, we have to have some kind of trusted relationship. I don't take what you tell me and and go back and share that with the company.

I do have check-in sometimes sessions with m- with the managers, right, with the people who hire me, but nothing is conveyed that you don't want said. So yeah, I mean, that's why the EQ assessment is so important because it kind of gives us data that we can work from, but you're gonna get what you put into the coaching, right?

So if you are hesitant or skeptical, um, my job as a coach is to help you, uh, feel comfortable with me and and like at least help you see some results. And part of it is, is you're gonna get what you put into it. So hopefully, you know, there's some shared goals that we can have, and you can... And I do a lot of goal planning with, um, with my individual clients as well.

So it doesn't all have to be what your company wants you to do.

[00:11:14] Midroll: We believe that business is built on transparency and trust. We believe that good software should be built the same way. Big Pixel is a 100% US-based, fixed-fee, custom software design and development agency built on transparency and passion. No offshore handoffs, no surprise invoices, just a team that treats your problem like it's our own.

UX and design are core to everything we do. Not a phase that gets handed off, but a discipline that runs through every decision we make. We bring the expertise to build what your business needs and the clarity to know when AI and technology help and when they get in the way. We provide our clients honest assessments of where they are and how they can get where they want to go.

Your idea deserves the right team. Let's talk, plan, and create something that truly works for you.

[00:12:15] David: So what are the more common issues that leaders have that you work with? I'm as- guessing they clump together. The average leader, guy, girl, doesn't really matter what are they typically stuck on?

[00:12:29] Joanna: Confidence is a big one for both women and for men. If you don't believe in yourself, if you don't have, I know this speaks to a lot of founders, right? You have to have a lot of belief in yourself to make a business work, right? So confidence is a huge one. And then that actually, it all works together, right?

So that will help you be better in so many ways. But relationships, right? Like actually how to connect with people we're forgetting how to do that. Communication, we're forgetting how to do that. So those are really big areas. And then, there's something called reality testing versus which is your objectivity.

So how you look at something versus you're not letting emotion necessarily cloud your judgment, but you're also looking at things too rigidly. So that's an area that we focus on a lot and just gaining different perspective. But the big ones I would say if I had to take all of my clients, really confidence falls into almost every single person I've worked with in some capacity.

[00:13:31] David: can that go both ways? Like y- you're an arrogant jerk like Gary or, or-

[00:13:36] Joanna: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:37] David: You're

[00:13:38] Joanna: Yes. Yes. Sometimes like I, I focus on the inside, but the executive presence is how you show up, right? So that, so eventually we'll take the inside and see how you actually want to be perceived, 'cause it all, again, works together. So if you're too confident or, if you project this arrogance, then we need to temper that down.

And there's also something probably missing, like empathy. Like it's, something that might not be as prevalent in somebody that is overly competent. And I'm generalizing here, but everybody's made very, very differently. I've never seen two assessments that are alike

[00:14:17] David: So they don't bundle up as much as I would've expected. Okay, fair enough. We're all little snowflakes. Is that what you're saying? We're all unique and beautiful? That's

[00:14:24] Joanna: You are. That's why I love, I love the, the coaching 'cause it's it really is everybody's different

[00:14:29] David: So I know this is something that's tripped me up, and I'm betting you have a really good answer. What is the difference between management and leadership?

[00:14:38] Joanna: I do have a good answer because this is actually one of the core areas that I coach a lot. Like I mentioned, you know, a lot of people haven't been trained in leadership, and one of the hardest things is to go from being the doer, um, to being the leader. So when you grow into a leadership role, it is, you know, it goes from sometimes being like, let's say 75% of your job is actually doing the job, the technical part of the job, to actually leading people.

So 75% of your time goes and your energy is now going into people development, um, because it's not about doing the work and getting the results, it's about inspiring the people or engaging the people to get them to get to the results that you want. And hopefully having fun along the way so it's not just work.

But a lot of people have a really hard time with that transition. Um, and that, I think, is the difference between being able to manage versus lead. If you can figure out what makes people tick, how to help, shift people's perspective, get them to be, um, the best version of themselves, then, then, you know, then you're in it.

Then you're actually leading, you're developing them, you're coaching them. But not everybody knows how to do that, 

[00:15:58] David: Oh, 

[00:15:58] Joanna: when you're- That's true ... used to doing it, you know?

[00:16:00] David: That's been-- for me, that's, has... It comes and goes for me. There have been, I... And it's what does my company need? Sometimes I need to get in the, nitty-gritty and I'm doing the stuff, and sometimes it doesn't, and allows me to be a leader in whatever capacity, and then the business needs me again.

And now some of that, if I'm being 100% honest, I'm not sure if the company needs me or I just like doing.

[00:16:24] Joanna: Yeah. That, that's certainly a problem. I find myself... I had a real come to Jesus is the term that comes to mind, but I know some people don't like that term. But I had a real awakening the other day, a few weeks ago.

[00:16:36] David: Someone told, was sa- was talking, said, "I'm not a CEO. I am a CTO in disguise." And at first I was really upset 'cause I was like, "I've been leading this company for 13 years. You're a big jerk face," right? But then I re- the more I thought about it, the more I realized when you look at what a CEO really does, I don't wake up with those questions in my mind.

I wanna build the next feature. That's who I am, and that's my happy place. And so I, that was a real kick to the face, but it was accurate, I think, strangely.

[00:17:09] Joanna: Yeah. It's really easy to do the things that you know how to do and do the things that you're really passionate about, but when you're put in a leadership role, sometimes you don't get to do those things, 

you know? And you fall back into those, those habits. A lot of it is also about control and what you can control and what you can't.

You can't control the people doing the work, but you can really help them move in the direction, um, where you hope they should be going. And I think that's leading. So it's tough. It's a tough transition for people to make. I'm actually giving a workshop in a couple weeks on this for emerging leaders 'cause it's, it's not something that everybody, um, talks about.

You know, it definitely wasn't something that, It's not like, "Here you are, you're officially in a leadership role. Your job should be X percent this." It's just kinda comes with the territory.

[00:18:02] David: So is-- would you f- fall under the guise that leadership is something you're taught, not necessarily born with?

[00:18:09] Joanna: I think it's both. I think, you know, if you, if you really think about what you are made up of, what, what makes you tick, like there's some skills that I think are really, really valuable in leadership. Like you have to be a good communicator. You have to know how to commun- and be able to read the room.

I'm not just talking about delivering information, I'm talking about connection with people. You have to be, somewhat of the... I mean, you have to be smart enough to have the strategy and the foresight, right? And to be able to make quick decisions and to be able to, to really, um, galvanize people and move them in a direction.

And I think some skills people are born with, um, they're natural leaders and but I still think there's always space to learn leadership habits and leadership, um, skill sets because even if you're born with something, you still need to polish that skill. And there's some stat out there that says about 98% of executives need help with executive presence, right?

In some form or fashion. So how you show up as a leader every day, that takes work, right? How we show up every day as people takes work. You definitely can use a dose of, uh, I, I think everybody can use coaching in some regard, myself included.

[00:19:33] David: So because of the world we live in, I have to ask you the AI question. Have you noticed a shift in company culture based on AI and how that is affecting the workplace in general?

[00:19:46] Joanna: Yeah, I think, um, I mentioned that we are learning how not to communicate. I think AI is making it easier in a lot of ways. I, I like to say that I'll probably always have some job because I-- there's things that AI literally can't replace, at least right now the AI that, that you know, that I know. And that is, how you interact with people, like reading the room, being able to pi-pick up on body language to, um, know what it takes, what some- what drives somebody, you know, kind of situational leadership, so to speak.

And I think that there are a lot of easy ways that people have found to, to do parts of their job, and it's great. But I still think, you know, uh, using AI as a, as the communication tool, you know, or to write everything for you, for example, is not, is not the way. It's actually probably gotten a lot of people into trouble, a lot of companies into trouble, um, using AI's recommendations because part of the beauty of, of communications is being able to look at the big picture and, and soak it all in.

And I don't think there's you know, there's enough data right now to kind of be able to put the entire human psyche in there. So I do think I've seen a shift in little things because we have so many different platforms, and not just AI, right? Like I'd say technology in general. Even the way that we work has shifted so much in the last several years.

I think that people find it easier sometimes to be behind a, a computer screen than, you know, to engage with people these days. And I think that shifts how work is done and, and I've seen that shift go in a negative path sometimes, and sometimes it's led to really positive things. Sometimes it leads to solutions, but I've also seen people just not know how to do the basic communication or make assumptions because somebody communicates one way or didn't respond on, Microsoft Teams when they should've been on.

Stuff like that, that just causes unnecessary friction in the workplace.

[00:22:04] David: Yeah, I find, and you see this especially through the eyes of your kids, that our technology is slowly but surely replacing the need for any human interaction.

 And you can start to see that when you d- we all grew up that none of this existed, and we went out and played and talked to people and interacted, even went up to the barista and ordered a coffee and now my wife, and she's great with people, but now she'll order before she walks in. So she literally just pocks- picks up the coffee and sits down, like no, no human interaction. If you grew up and you never had to do that, and I'm-- It's not too long, I don't think, where you could probably live most of your life and never have to do that.

[00:22:50] Joanna: Maybe

[00:22:52] David: I think that's really unhealthy, but I think that's, it's almost like that's tr- the trajectory we're on. And if you're a remote consultant freelancer, and you live in your apartment and everything's delivered to you, and you don't actually have to speak to hardly anybody except maybe the DMV, right?

That's probably the only one you actually have to get up and go, but

[00:23:12] Joanna: Yeah, but there's this whole, like, loneliness ep- epidemic, right, that's going on, so people need people, and I'm in the people business, and I think that, like, I don't know, you know, m- it might be healthy for some people but I, I don't know s- that, um, that, you know, that's the way that we're gonna be the most productive, right?

Or happy even. Um, one of the things that this EQi assessment has in it is your wellness indicator, and it really looks at, like, how happy are you. And so some of these things are core, you know, having relationships with people, being able to talk to people, how you feel about yourself, like, are...

All that can't be necessarily solved by by engaging... There, there's things that you miss, you know, um, it- by engaging on communication platforms versus, like, 

[00:24:08] David: Oh, 

[00:24:08] Joanna: human inter- being human, being

[00:24:10] David: Even Zoom, I mean, Zoom is great compared to Slack and all text, but Zoom versus in person, still not, it's still the big difference.

[00:24:18] Joanna: Yeah, there's energy. There's energy in a room and some-- I'm an, I'm what I call an ambivert. I'm an extroverted introvert, so I need my downtime, but I can definitely turn it on when I need to turn it on. But there's also something about being in a room of a, with a, with a group of people, and I'm not saying one way or another of how we should work, but I am saying that can't be replaced, and I think people need that. People need that, that energy. And there's a lot of anger right now, so I think people need positive energy.

[00:24:50] David: There we go. All right, Gary, wrap us up

[00:24:53] Gary: Joanna, usually we'll ask our guests for three pieces of advice on starting their own business, but for you, we're gonna change it up a little bit, and what would you say are your top three pieces of advice for someone coming into a leadership role?

[00:25:07] Joanna: okay. I think my three things I would say is know how to listen, right? The best information that you can get is not necessarily by talking as a leader, but by listening as a leader. Be self-aware and be ready to, you know, to take feedback, um, that comes with that self-awareness and not necessarily take it personally.

And have a village. You know? Whether that... I think leadership is, is hard and sometimes, you know, I was talking to a client today about this, leadership can be very lonely because the, um, not being the doer and surrounded by other doers, you know, and, and moving up, there's not always the comrades in arms, so to speak.

So find your village, whether that's a, a coach like me or, you know, other professionals in your area like, like David. So people you can talk to, people you can realize that you are, um, probably not experiencing your leadership problems by yourself. Somebody else is going through something very similar.

Um, and it makes it a little easier. And give yourself grace.

[00:26:17] David: Oh, she snuck into fourth

[00:26:18] Joanna: I did.

[00:26:19] Gary: All right. If anybody wants to learn more about you or your business, where's the best place to find you?

[00:26:24] Joanna: either on LinkedIn, I'm @JoannaRoses or www.joannarosescoaching.com.

[00:26:32] Gary: We'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well

[00:26:36] Joanna: Thanks

[00:26:37] David: Well, thank you, Ms. Joanna, for joining us. This was a lot of fun

[00:26:40] Joanna: It was a lot of fun. Thank you for talking to me and inviting me

[00:26:45] Outro: That wraps up this episode of the BizDev Podcast. Thanks for listening. Let us know your thoughts. We'd love to hear from you. Shoot us an email at hello@thebigpixel.net or connect with us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, X, and LinkedIn. BizDev is a production of Big Pixel, a US-based provider of UX, design, strategy, and custom software.

This podcast is edited by Matt McCracken, yes, that is his name, and me, Christy Pronto, marketing guru for Big Pixel

‍