[00:00:00] Gary: I did hear you were the first choice for the Dos Equis commercial with the interesting guy, but

[00:00:05] David: Yeah the most interesting man alive. They had Bill but Bill was like, I'm too busy. So they went with the other guy and he was fine.

[00:00:15] David: Hi everyone. Welcome to the BizDev Podcast, the podcast about developing your business.

I'm David Baxter, your host, joined Per Usual by Mr. Gary Voight. Hello. Good sir. Once again, you have graced me with your presence.

[00:00:27] Gary: You are welcome.

[00:00:29] David: More importantly, we are joined by friend Bill Rollinson. Hello, sir. He is the founder of Surf at Locker, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. Bill has done everything and he's one of the most interesting people you'll ever meet.

Hello, bill. I did not oversell that, did I?

[00:00:48] Bill: No. A little bit. Yeah. But no, thank you, David. Thank you, Gary, for having me. I appreciate

[00:00:53] Gary: I did hear you were the first choice for the Dos Equis commercial with the interesting guy, but

[00:00:58] David: Yeah the most interesting man alive. They had Bill but they Bill was like, I'm too busy. And so they went with the other guy and he was fine. He was fine. He wouldn't have been Bill,

[00:01:07] Gary: that's true.

[00:01:08] David: so I say all that. So give everyone who doesn't know you and doesn't realize who I'm talking to, tell them who you are in 30,000 foot view.

'cause I know it would take way too long to go into the details, but your history is so cool.

[00:01:22] Bill: I'll do something, fast. And quick background, I'm sorry to Gary about this a little bit. I started as a graphic designer. That's what I studied in school. And I opened a design firm early in my career. And I happened to be lucky enough to have it be in Palo Alto in the heart of the Silicon Valley in the eighties, and.

Again, I'm aging myself a little bit, but the great thing was I got exposed to a bunch of founders of companies building software primarily for the Macintosh. So those were my first clients, but I had some other clients, but they were primarily in the software area. So I learned a lot and I really loved, these founders that were starting companies and building things.

Fast forward, I sold my company after six years, went on to found six more companies, mainly in that tech space. And got to a point where. We had four grown kids, three of them were in college, or three, four kids. Three, three in college. My wife goes, you probably should get a real job. So I pivoted and actually went to work for a company that got acquired by Visa.

So I was a product manager at Visa right when subscription billing was starting. So I went and evangelized and tried to convince companies that they could bill in a new way. And it's interesting how much that happens now. There's almost a backlash on it now, but back then it was Hey there, there's a new way to actually monetize what you're doing.

And because of that, I got hired at Adobe as a payments product manager because Adobe shifted their whole model from how software was bought and paid for. And we built a whole team around that to help them do that. And then. As I got more into this payments area, I got, I recruited and was lucky enough to land a job at Google, which is a place I'd never thought I would work.

And so I was there for a year and then this pandemic thing hit. And so I spent two years at Google remote, fully remote, and that allowed us to move to Raleigh, North Carolina, where we've been for six years. Lot of really great experience. But I think the thing that, that I love the most, and one of the reasons I'm back doing a kind of a startup now in doing surf at Locker is.

Building things and just, the, what I learned from all these amazing founders, they're all different. And I think that there's no form, there's no magic formula. There's some tips maybe along the way, but you fail and you re, you learn and you keep on going. But that, that, that's my history in a, sorry that it took a little bit longer, but,

[00:03:51] David: it with the history like yours. I love it.

[00:03:53] Bill: So I think, looking at if I was managing a large company today, or even a mid-size company or, as a solopreneur, I'd be looking for ways to use these new technology tools to, really increase my, my, the revenue of my business, the sustainability of my business, moats.

That would be hard for competitors to come in and take that business in the future. Or if I'm an existing business, if my margins. Let's say my margins are 10%. And so now I've got this new tool, I might hire more people, actually spend more money, invest more money, but I've had, I can get my margins to 20% or 25% or introduce new products that my customers want, that I could never do before.

Or I can do predictive modeling, that I would have to hire consultants that I would never have the time to do. I can predict that I can do these new things. That's where I'd be spending my time and energy and figuring out, I'm gonna have to reinvent the strategy and the structure. Of my business and the kind of people I hire.

But it doesn't mean that I'm actually gonna lay off people necessarily and not hire any humans right now. There are gonna be some shifts and there are some jobs that are definitely gonna go away within a organization, but I would say that there's a whole new category of jobs that we don't know quite what those are gonna be yet that are, that will come into play.

So again, I. I'm a much bigger fan of using this stuff to grow and to do new things and do things that you've never seen before or never could do before, than just trying to optimize your existing business. I think that's super dangerous.

[00:05:32] David: I I agree on all fronts. I think we're, I have said, and I've posted about this on LinkedIn and whatnot, but I am constantly amazed when you have a gizmo like ai. That is revolutionizing this isn't the first time when you're old enough, you, this is, I think for me in my life, this is number three,

[00:05:50] Bill: Okay. Yep.

[00:05:52] David: cloud, and maybe four if you wanna close mobile.

'cause mobile was a massive shift as well. And then now ai, but. When you've seen this before, it's, it is kinda like old hat, but this is special. I will say this is a big one and, but what I look at it is if I can get my guy who, whatever guy, gal whatever they're doing, and I can make that person do twice as much work for no real more cost, not really. Why would I say I don't need that other person. Then why wouldn't I just say, let's make 'em both have superpowers and let's rock this thing. Let's go. That's what I don't understand, like block is saying, okay, we only need 60% of our workforce. Why? You could invent new products. You could do all sorts of crazy things you couldn't do before.

But you're saying, nah, let's just maintain the status quo. I don't understand that line of thinking. I would love to meet someone that believes what Jack Dorsey does, because I would love to hear what they say because there might be a very valid reason for that, but I haven't heard it.

[00:06:49] Bill: Yeah. And I think we'll probably come somewhere in between, because I remember when we started our internet e-commerce company, business Week ran a thing that said, retail is dead. Brick and mortar retail is dead. It's gonna be a hundred percent, online shopping.

And we're at like 15%, 20% still today.

[00:07:06] David: it's, and I don't think it's changing dramatically, like it slowed way down.

[00:07:10] Bill: Yeah. And this, so we started in 1994. Look where we are now again, that, that prediction did not come true. Now it surely disrupted and changed a lot of industries and a lot of, but it's funny, as I look back sometimes the most counterintuitive things are the things that happen.

We, in 19 93, 19 94, we pitched internet shopping and e-commerce on Sandhill Road and got laughed off the hill. Everyone said, no, one VC said, Hey, I have a catalog and a phone. Why would I ever buy anything on a computer? That's the stupidest idea I've ever seen. And we believed in it.

So we, we kept on going. And the VC that actually invested in us, Tim Draper couldn't get his partners to invest, but he and his sister personally put money in 'cause Tim believed what we were doing and that gave us our

[00:07:59] David: paid off.

[00:08:00] Bill: Yeah, it paid off for him, but we were so early 'cause we, and then we ended up getting bought six months later by home shopping network.

'Cause they, and they internally were trying to build something like we had already built and so they bought us and so that was a, that was a good thing. It would've been better if we would've waited because then this thing came, it's called Amazon came along and eBay came along.

But we helped, yeah, we helped pioneer some of that stuff because the thing, sometimes it's again, easier in hindsight, even going back, but during that time period it was really difficult to do credit cards online.

[00:08:39] David: I built in those early days. Yeah. Oh dude. PCI was real. It was

[00:08:45] Bill: And there was no PCI yet, so this was, but the good news was QVC and HSN knew how to take cards over the phone and they took a lot of 'em, and they had clout with the banks.

So that allowed us, once they bought us. We had clout and we had the ability, that helps. So again, a lot of those little tiny nuances never get talked about very much, but if that hadn't have happened, then, there's just so many things that kind of fell into place along the way that, that, that made it work So.

[00:09:18] David: That's awesome.

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[00:10:20] David (return): So I wanna change gears a little bit and I want to tell me about what you're working on now. You're, you've got a new little startup. Tell me about Surf Locker.

[00:10:27] Bill: Yeah and it's funny 'cause it's a new little startup that's old. So I started it as a side business in California and I had two locations. I had one in Monterey, California and one up in Napa Valley. On the. Napa River. And what it, what Surf Locker allowed someone to do is to use their mobile phone to rent a paddleboard to go out on the water so they didn't have to put it on their cars.

Trying to make it convenient for them. And this was, I started this when there was no bike sharing yet, no scooters, none of that stuff existed. So we were pretty early. And again, we had two locations, it was going okay. But I learned that having the hardware and having the equipment and finding the location and paying for insurance was really expensive and not a great business model for me personally.

Pivoted a little bit and then we moved to North Carolina. COVID hit, we moved to North Carolina. I got, I got a real job back here, so I was doing that and. So in this December, I retired and so I go, I wanna redo surfer locker. And I want to do it using ai, so I want to become a solopreneur with an AI first company.

So that's what I've been doing. And so I I trashed the website. I trashed all the stuff that we had done before, and I just started fresh and using AI tools and just teaching myself and learning as much as I can. You know what this is doing it. And it's been really fun.

It definitely is challenging. It definitely teaches you how to try to use some of these tools and. I think the one thing that I think about a lot, and this goes back to having worked in, in, in Adobe or a Visa or a Google big companies, is, okay, if this does start to work, is this scalable?

Is it gonna, how am I gonna QA this going forward? How I'm gonna keep testing it, how I test it on all these different platforms that I need to test it on. It's one thing to, to make a fun prototype that I can show to somebody. But, if a lot of people start using it, is it gonna break, so I'm right in the middle of that right now, and it and again it's really refreshing and freeing because I don't, I'm not under a lot of pressure to get it to work really fast. And I think the amazing time we live in right now is everything is so fast, right? You can do stuff really fast.

But I think sometimes, again, going back to the counterintuitive things, it's okay to be slow sometimes too. Take your time, focus on one area, get it really well done. Not to the point where you're trying to perfect something and get it perfect 'cause you never get it perfect.

So again I'm struggling a little bit with that balance right now. Okay. This is cool. I made something. Is it ready to ship or am I being too cautious? Or, am I being too optimistic or should I wait a little bit so it doesn't break? Are my customers? Comfortable enough with it breaking probably not.

So anyway, so

[00:13:20] David (return): on how much money is involved. Yeah.

[00:13:21] Bill: exactly, and it's not that much. The good news is my business model, what we do is we work with outdoor shops like surf shops, kayak shops, people that, that rent equipment for people to get out on the water. We have guides for those shops for that specific area. So someone just scans a QR code when they get in there.

It's free to the consumer. There's no app. And it gives them a guide for the, for the time that they're using the equipment and then the shop pays us $49 a month to have the software. So that's, it's pretty simple. And I guess, I think that's the other thing, if.

Having been an entrepreneur for a long time is trying to simplify things. We tend to try to always overcomplicate things, so trying to make things, simple, add a lot of value. Convenience people are, people are overwhelmed today. They, so if we can save time, give value, you. And the whole goal of the company is to help people get outdoors more often.

Again, get away from the screens, get away from computers, even though we're using a, using a mobile phone to do that. Yeah.

[00:14:29] David (return): It's funny you bring, you, you're hitting home a lot of these things. So our little Tela, I 1:00 AM super impatient. So it's funny when you immerse yourself in AI, and I mean that, you're doing the podcasts, you're doing the videos, you're trying to learn this stuff, like you're talking about, you're immersing yourself and that is so hyperspace fast and you feel like you're always behind.

You feel like you're never catching up, and that's one train. But the rest of the world still moves the. Same space, the world's moving. Customer discovery, your first clients, your first, your pilot program. There's no way to shortchange that. Just because AI is moving super fast over here doesn't mean that the rest of the world is, and I'm really struggling with that because I'm like I'm gonna get behind.

I'm gonna do something, whatever. And everybody, and the other thing that struck home, you've done the startup of things so many times, and I've. Technically, this is number two for me, but the difference between service company and a product company is very different, but I feel like I, I liken it a lot to having your first kid versus your second or third kid, or in your case, sixth kid. You are like, the first baby you have. If those who are listening who've never had a baby, this will not make any sense. But when you have your first baby and you bring it home, you have no idea. You wonder why they let you bring it home to begin with. 'cause you don't have a clue what you're doing.

And my wife and I made the pact that once we brought him home we are like, our job is not to kill him. That's it. That's our only job. We're just not, he's 20 now. So we made it, but but startups are the same thing. I overreact and I'm told this every day, you're overreacting because I don't know any better because to me it's the first time, right?

I'm a teenager with this first date, right? This is all new to me. And so I freak out, just freak out's too strong, but I get nervous or I take it too personally really quickly. And my team is like, dude, breathe. Just breathe. Even though they've never done it either, they just know this should, this isn't that big a deal.

And then I talk to people, serial entrepreneurs like you and others, and you're like, this is normal, man. This is how it works. And take your time and breathe. And six months from now, I'm like, six months. The world's gonna be totally different in six months. What are you doing? That is I appreciate people like you just breathing a little chill into my life.

[00:16:43] Gary: I think Bill mentioned earlier something that's exactly like what you're talking about, and it just goes into the hype cycle of things like the hype cycle of AI is still so high right now, and the people hyping it up the most are the ones who are gonna benefit from other people using it to try to, keep that cycle going so that they make money off of it.

But like you said, the rest of the world is not operating in that same speed, but they are watching things just go up and down and up and down and up and down again, waiting for it to level out and be like, okay. Now that we can see where it's headed, let's give it a try. So I think you're just in that hype cycle of gotta do it now.

'cause if I don't, a hundred other people are gonna do it and I'm gonna miss out where

[00:17:21] David (return): Oh, a hundred percent. I'm in that hype cycle. 'cause I am, 'cause, and me personally, I'm in this. Thing, this hole, this AI hole, because I have to learn it. I've put the pressure on myself to learn it so the rest of my team can learn it for big pixel so that I am lose using the latest tools and I'm, don't do that.

Oh, go do this, right? That kind of stuff. 'cause then I, we meet monthly and I'm like, this is what I've learned. This is what you should stay away from and this is what's good. And so I'm constantly changing and so Tila doesn't move at that speed. It's just very different. And so I've had to, I am, it's a very much a work in progress, but I'm trying to figure out what's real and what's just noise.

And when it comes to startups, it's funny 'cause I've been in them forever. I build them for other people. I've done it forever. But doing it yourself, it's a lot more personal. I think that's what has taken me by surprise. If someone says they don't like it, somehow that's personal. And I don't know why that's true, but it is.

[00:18:22] Bill: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it's a balancing act. I think, and again, we're seeing some things that we've never seen before and again, the speed that, I like you David, I worry a little bit, Hey, there's a new tool out today. Should I go try that new tool? I'm still learning the tool that I just started on, so I get, I'm not gonna,

[00:18:41] David (return): But is that too crap? I don't know.

[00:18:43] Bill: I don't know.

I don't know. It sounds good, right? But I'm gonna be a little patient and stick with what I have got, as long as it's working for me and not, but I am, I, yeah, but I am trying to make sure that I am out there paying attention to so that they don't get blindsided.

But even things like, okay, should it be hosted by yourself or should you have, is it okay? A third parties hosting all your code, right? So again, those type of decisions. So I think, and that's where the humans are really important, right? So this is not a, again, I don't think. The computers are gonna take over.

I think the humans need to learn how to work better with computers. And someone, I forget whose podcast it was the other day, I love this. He said the great thing now is computers speak our language. Before you had to speak their language, but now they speak English or whatever. It doesn't

[00:19:33] David (return): that was at Raleigh Durham Startup Week. 'cause I wrote that quote

[00:19:36] Bill: okay? Yes. Yeah.

[00:19:38] David (return): and I would

[00:19:39] Bill: It was Alec, it was AI with Alec. Yeah, ai. AI with Alec said that. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways.

[00:19:45] David (return): love that

[00:19:46] Bill: Yeah. And it is because now you can actually tell, you know it in English or in your language what you want it to do, and it understands, and it's getting better. And I think the other thing that I'm really fascinated about with, and this goes back to Surf Locker, is if I've got 50 or a hundred locations and I'm getting.

Feedback from all the different people using the, using my software. I'm capturing all that data and all those questions and I'm actually now getting the AI is helping me get smarter. But I can also share that with all the, you have that network effect I can share with all the other shops. Do you realize that this is, you're not alone in the questions or the things that you're getting?

'cause I'm seeing it, across the region. And so that builds competitive advantage for me. I, one of the other great things at the Raleigh during startup week was, I think it was Scott Wino had the thing on moats, he talked about, with all this new technology and ai, how do keep a mode or competitive advantage around your company?

And he had 12 different things to, to focus on. And again, it depends a lot on what kind of company you have and what the market is and all that kind of stuff. But there were some really good things in there. And, going back, I think. Forget the technology for a second, but if you're doing things that your customers really love and that makes things convenient for them and they love your product or service, that's what's important.

They're gonna tell other people, no matter what, forget social media. They can even just tell 'em in person. So I think those things don't go away, and those are things that I saw, back. When I was first starting and building companies in Silicon Valley is the people that got that, the founders that got that were super successful.

Got a fun, this is a quick fun story, but one of my clients in the early Mac days was this little company called Intuit that had three people, two engineers in the founder. Tiny company. So Scott Cook came from Procter and Gamble was really new about the consumer and he spent all his time making sure that the product was super easy to use and was so different than any other accounting software on the market before.

And he would sit you down and say, Hey, try to enter your checkbook stuff on this software, which was as competitive, and now try to do it on Quicken. And it was quick and easy, and that's. That's what he did. But what really impressed me is here I had a small design business and I get a call from Scott one day.

He goes, Hey, can you meet me after work Today I want to talk to you a little bit about how you do accounting for your small business. He goes, 'cause we've got Quicken for consumers, but we're thinking about doing a product called QuickBooks for a small business. And I want to sit down with you and talk to you about how you do your books today and what frustrates you, what doesn't work.

And we sat down and it was at a restaurant in downtown Palo Alto for probably a half an hour, and he just quizzed me on what do you do today? And I was pretty naive as a founder. This is, I think one of the questions you were gonna ask is, what tips do you have? Get a really good accounting bookkeeping person.

Really early on I made that mistake and I did not have one. When I had my first business and I learned rapidly. In my other startups, one of our first hires was a really good financial CFO person to explain your business to your investors, to your, to make sure you were running it correctly and doing all the things you're supposed to do from a financial perspective.

Anyways, sorry about the long story, but that focus doesn't go away today. So forget, again, for, forget all the new technology and stuff that we have. You still gotta look at, what problem are you trying to solve? How can you do it better than the way it's working today? And what tools do you have to do that?

And again, I think that strategy and people part is a super important part. So technology should is second.

[00:23:46] David (return): Very good. All right, Gary, do you want to go off topic now or do you wanna wrap up?

[00:23:51] Gary: I had just a couple questions and then we could wrap up.

[00:23:55] David (return): All right. Jump in there.

[00:23:57] Gary: first one did you ever get the chance to see an Apple keynote in person with Steve Jobs?

[00:24:04] Bill: I actually worked for Steve, actually for, I did some design work for Steve.

[00:24:09] David (return): You walked right into that one, Gary.

[00:24:11] Gary: Dude, why does this guy keep impressing me too much?

[00:24:13] David (return): I'm, dude, I told you. I told you he's the most interesting guy you'll ever meet. You didn't believe me. Here you go.

[00:24:19] Bill: So three funny Steve Jobs stories. So the first one is my design shop was in downtown Palo Alto, and we had one of the first European coffee shops below us, so there was no Starbucks or anything yet, and Steve used to love to come in and get coffee there, but he didn't like the food.

And there was a bagel store next door. So Steve would get a bagel, come in and get coffee, but he'd have to hide the bagel. 'cause Fred, who was the manager, said no outside food would kick jobs out. So they had a running and my office was above. I had a window I could see down, I could watch jobs in the corner trying to hide his bagel from Fred.

And Fred would

[00:24:54] Gary: That's

[00:24:55] Bill: over and try to, and kick him out. So it was an ongoing thing. But he was in there one day when he bought Pixar. He was in there negotiating to buy Pixar. But that was his hangout. He loved going there and getting coffee. And and then when he was at next, my, one of the partners that I started a business with, Randy Adams.

Was the director of engineering there. And so Randy is in his is working and Jobs comes running and he goes, Randy, we gotta go move the cars. They both had Porsches, they, they Porsches that were parked out in front. 'cause Ross Perot was coming to invest. And he goes, if Perot sees those two Porsches, that's not a good thing.

So we gotta get those cars outta here. And then, yeah, the last thing was they had bought a word processor and. Steve Jobs had it at Next, and he didn't want it, it was for the Mac, and he didn't want to publish it, so he sent it over to this other company called Tea Maker to publish it.

And we actually designed the packaging for it and he had to approve the packaging, so we had to present it

[00:25:55] Gary: that's pretty cool.

[00:25:56] Bill: and he approved it. Which I was scared to death of, as a designer is he's gonna scream and yell at me and say, this is really awful or whatever. But it got

[00:26:03] Gary: you can say that Steve Jobs approved one of your designs.

[00:26:08] Bill: But yeah. Yeah. To answer your question, I never actually went to one of the keynotes. I'm trying to think. No I, oh, you know what I did? I did go to one in San Francisco. I did. Yeah. But that was really early on. 'Cause these were the, this was in the early days of Apple. So for, he was there for a little bit, got left and then went to next.

And then went back. And so when he went back, I didn't have any interactions with him. It was before and the and the next time.

[00:26:33] David (return): Yeah, people, most younger people think that Apple started when he came back.

[00:26:38] Bill: Back.

[00:26:39] David (return): no,

[00:26:39] Gary: oh, I remember the very first, the apple, the desktop Macintosh like unit, like my parents had a Commodore 64 and my neighbor's parents had the apple.

[00:26:51] Bill: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:53] Gary: And all we did with either one of 'em was play gauntlet.

[00:26:57] David: Sounds Yep.

Yep. Yep.

[00:27:00] Gary: Okay. Bill, your stories are probably enough for us to do two or three more episodes on, but for now we'll just get three pieces of advice from you, from anybody who's a new founder or a new startup. Based on your experience, what three pieces of advice do you have for.

[00:27:17] Bill: I think the one thing is. To, I said this before about being simple, trying to not try to do too much too early. And the second thing is it's okay to say no. I think as a founder and early person, you're trying to please a lot of people and get new customers, and you tend to say yes when maybe you shouldn't.

And it's okay to, to again say no. And I think the last thing is. That you really need to add value and give the client, that convenience and that thing that really wows them. That should be what you're focused on. Even if it's not monetary in the beginning, you may not make enough.

You may not be able to charge for it out of the gate, but if that's your goal is just to make someone's life, easier, better prob, solve problems. Is really important. And, but it does really depend a lot on the person, the business, the market. There's so many variables that it, there's not this like simple, solution So I think the last thing is just keep on learning. Keep being curious and learn from people too. It's not just, AI can give you all these answers, but, go hang out with other founders, go to these conferences. This Raleigh Durham Startup Week was excellent.

The people that you meet and talk to and see in person, I think we're gonna have more in person events than we've ever had before. I think AI is gonna just, make us more, hopefully more social and more, interacting and talking with our peers.

[00:28:46] Gary: That'd be a cool outcome. AI is the actually thing, the thing that actually gets us back to talking to each

[00:28:52] Bill: Exactly.

[00:28:53] Gary: scrolling through social media all day.

[00:28:55] Bill: Yep.

[00:28:56] David (return): There. That's, that goes back to the dead internet theory. Have you heard the dead internet theory?

[00:29:00] Bill: No.

[00:29:01] David (return): that the internet is that as we know it, all the websites and the call and the forums and whatever, those are all gonna be bots, and those are just gonna be bots talking to each other. And then there will be another internet, for lack of a better term.

There'll be another place where humans go and bots are gonna be walled off. Reddit is the closest, like they're really trying hard to keep the bots outta there. I don't know how successful they are, but that you'll see most forums, most social media, they said something like 52%. Of all that number's probably wrong, but something like that of all posts now.

[00:29:33] Gary: it's actually more than that in certain, I know for sure I think the last evaluation that X had for bot traffic was in the 80 percentile.

[00:29:43] David (return): Oh, I bet X in particular I just think people would probably be amazed how little they are actually speaking to humans when they're on social media. So that thing that you're so upset about. Is completely fabricated just to get you upset. And I don't think people, especially younger people, have no idea that's actually what's happening.

But the idea is that there we're gonna build like a, our own little place for humans. And it wouldn't surprise me where can bots not be in person? So it's like I, that makes sense that we're all gonna be like, I'm done with the bots. I did my bot work today, now I'm gonna go do human stuff.

And we're gonna get outside and, touch some grass. And I think you're gonna find that to be more common.

[00:30:27] Gary: Or paddle some boards.

[00:30:29] Bill: Yes.

[00:30:29] Gary: if anybody wants to learn more about if anybody wants to learn more about you, bill, or about Surf at Locker, where's the best place to find it?

[00:30:36] Bill: I think probably LinkedIn is the best. Either LinkedIn, I've got my own personal profile and I've got a surf locker profile there, so that's probably the best place to start.

[00:30:45] Gary: All right, we'll make sure those links are in the show notes as well.

[00:30:48] David (return): thank you. I knew this was gonna be so much fun.

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